.223 Pistol

[ProCroation]

I'm not sure of the best sub-forum here that this should be posted, however I didn't feel it specifically was geared toward ammo, nor the AR section. Since it encompassed a few subjects I decided "everything else" would be the home for this post.

While discussing with my wife, my interest in soon purchasing an AK74 (she said YES!) I came across a question in my mind. I decided the 74 instead of the AK47 because .223 is so cheap to shoot and abundant. This keeps my ammo purchases pretty straight forward. I already have to buy .308, .40 and .223 so why add a new cartridge with an AK47 right? Right!

So the pondering began. Is there a pistol in .223 to keep ammo purchases even more straight forward? That is the question. I'm not talking a random sized round that the FN 5-Seven offers. I'm talking, a semi-auto, side-arm sized pistol chambered in actual .223 and perhaps I'm asking for too much. I'm not looking for an AR pistol that would look like a kitchen rolling-pin stuffed in my pants (with concealment in mind). I'm 175lbs and I tuck a 4" XD40 cleanly away, so a full size pistol is fine by me though. Perhaps this would not be practical at all. I'll go on to say that recoil is of the least of my concerns.

A quick google search provided me with few results. Maybe it's just not a thing. I liked the FN 5-Seven but I wouldn't make that purchase for numerous reasons. Mainly, it still introduces a new cartridge to my existing purchases (not to mention it would be an expensive ammo introduction). The FN 5-Seven also appears to be rather expensive. I could justify the expense though, if it fit my intent to consolidate my ammo selection.

I'm open to information, criticism, opinion...whatever you want to share on this broad subject. Thanks in advance for any info.

[ProCroation]

After some thought just now, I considered an issue that .223 in a semi-auto would present. A magazine capable of holding .223 would be thick from front to back. That would probably make for an awkward grip...

Also after some reading, there seems to be discussion centered around .223 from short barrels...lacking in power?

Meh...it was all just a thought.

[Marcus]

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

An ak74 shoots 5.45. Not 5.56. You can find ak's in .223 (I had a saiga). Just clarifying.

The issues with length and short barrel size apply.

[WLJ]

Also after some reading, there seems to be discussion centered around .223 from short barrels...lacking in power?

Nearly all rifle rounds lack proper power with a pistol/SBR length barrel.

[son of liberty]

Your not going to find a Pistol chambered in a rifle round that will conceal first off, and as you said they will make poor use of the rifle round as the barrel will lack the length. For some people in some cases the loss of velocity is worth the trade to have a PDW sized firearm, it just depends on what you do with it.

As to adding a caliber , I agree, why would you? This is in no way an ARvsAK argument either , both a suitable rifles. For logistical reasons though , pick one or the other. Your ammo needs are pretty strait forward now , carry that idea over, what about magazines, sights, carry gear, and replacement parts?

Dose your wife have an XD40, dose she have a MBR?

[guncrank1]

Only handgun of concealable size I recall is a derringer.
Americian Derringer and Bond are two high end that make or made a model
Below is a goggle fu.

http://www.guns.com/2014/04/23/meet-new ... derringer/

As too power lost due to short barrel , that is a issue along with bullet stabilization behond 7 yards.
At least that is a issue in my .22LR derringer.

Plus muzzle blast and recoil handling, but what do I know??

[ProCroation]

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

An ak74 shoots 5.45. Not 5.56. You can find ak's in .223 (I had a saiga). Just clarifying.

The issues with length and short barrel size apply.

Right. I've been looking at .223 barreled aks and they seem to be listed as 74s. Would .223 not be a 74?

[ProCroation]

Also after some reading, there seems to be discussion centered around .223 from short barrels...lacking in power?

Nearly all rifle rounds lack proper power with a pistol/SBR length barrel.

Understood. Like I said I kept reading that. Just wasn't sure if it was so much loss that it wouldn't be an effective round anymore.

[Marcus]

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

An ak74 shoots 5.45. Not 5.56. You can find ak's in .223 (I had a saiga). Just clarifying.

The issues with length and short barrel size apply.

Right. I've been looking at .223 barreled aks and they seem to be listed as 74s. Would .223 not be a 74?

No. Not necessarily.

[nemo]

Haven't checked lately, but AK mags in .223 were almost double $$ and hard to find.

[WLJ]

Also after some reading, there seems to be discussion centered around .223 from short barrels...lacking in power?

Nearly all rifle rounds lack proper power with a pistol/SBR length barrel.

Understood. Like I said I kept reading that. Just wasn't sure if it was so much loss that it wouldn't be an effective round anymore.

Depends on how you define effective.
If you define effective as in 223 will still make holes in things, then yes it's effective
If you define effective as in 223 will fragment like it's suppose to, then no. 223/5.56 from what I have read needs to be at 2,700fps or above to fragment reliably. 223 is a rifle round and needs a rifle length barrel to do what it's suppose to do. IMHO

You may want to see this
223 tested with barrels from 3" to 18" http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/223rifle.html
Note: these numbers are at the muzzle (or pretty dare close to it)

I'm a firm believer in matching round to barrel length which why I SMH at 2" barrel 357mag stubbies. The round needs a 4" barrel to get going.

[ProCroation]

Your not going to find a Pistol chambered in a rifle round that will conceal first off, and as you said they will make poor use of the rifle round as the barrel will lack the length. For some people in some cases the loss of velocity is worth the trade to have a PDW sized firearm, it just depends on what you do with it.

As to adding a caliber , I agree, why would you? This is in no way an ARvsAK argument either , both a suitable rifles. For logistical reasons though , pick one or the other. Your ammo needs are pretty strait forward now , carry that idea over, what about magazines, sights, carry gear, and replacement parts?

Dose your wife have an XD40, dose she have a MBR?

See I wondered about concealment being an issue because this would have been a carry piece if there was a market or selection. I think I could have traded loss of energy to keep my ammo needs down to a minimalist dollar and variation.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other between AK and AR. I like both for different reasons. However to keep ammo straight forward I want both platforms just chambered in the same round.

My wife does not have an XD40. She HAD a Ruger LCP .380 in raspberry pink right up until she shot it the first few times. She had never shot a gun before that. The recoil did not bother her. It was the bang. With hearing protection she was not impressed and changed her mind completely about wanting it. I had to sell it a month after purchase. She is now currently interested in the Ruger SR22 since she now knows what a .22 sounds like. Which unfortunately...will introduce another ammo need. That's an addition I'd be okay with taking on, if it means I can get her out to the range with me again finally.

[ProCroation]

Only handgun of concealable size I recall is a derringer.
Americian Derringer and Bond are two high end that make or made a model
Below is a goggle fu.

http://www.guns.com/2014/04/23/meet-new ... derringer/

As too power lost due to short barrel , that is a issue along with bullet stabilization behond 7 yards.
At least that is a issue in my .22LR derringer.

Plus muzzle blast and recoil handling, but what do I know??

Yeah...what do you know? jk Cranky. I hold your opinion valuable. Good point about stabilization also. I hadn't taken that into account yet.

Thanks for the link to the derringer. I read about it in a few comment sections of other sites discussing pistol .223 but didn't look it up because it was a single shot.

[ProCroation]

Haven't checked lately, but AK mags in .223 were almost double $$ and hard to find.

I wouldn't mind the up front cost of extra mags personally. If it means that I can consolidate my ammo for the long run, it might be worth it.

[ProCroation]

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

An ak74 shoots 5.45. Not 5.56. You can find ak's in .223 (I had a saiga). Just clarifying.

The issues with length and short barrel size apply.

Right. I've been looking at .223 barreled aks and they seem to be listed as 74s. Would .223 not be a 74?

No. Not necessarily.

Well...I'm smart enough to make sure it's chambered in .223 before making my purchase . Thanks for clearing up any misinformation about the specific ammo they use. When talking about dropping a few hundred bucks, rest assured I will do plenty of research and investigation before-hand.

[ProCroation]

Your not going to find a Pistol chambered in a rifle round that will conceal first off, and as you said they will make poor use of the rifle round as the barrel will lack the length. For some people in some cases the loss of velocity is worth the trade to have a PDW sized firearm, it just depends on what you do with it.

As to adding a caliber , I agree, why would you? This is in no way an ARvsAK argument either , both a suitable rifles. For logistical reasons though , pick one or the other. Your ammo needs are pretty strait forward now , carry that idea over, what about magazines, sights, carry gear, and replacement parts?

Dose your wife have an XD40, dose she have a MBR?

Just for further clarification...If there had been a .223 carry pistol available, I would have purchased it and run it through its paces before deciding it's what I expected. If it served the purposes that I intended and if I was satisfied with it, the .40 would probably no longer be in my line-up. Maybe. I like my XD though

[jackalo626]

Your not going to find a Pistol chambered in a rifle round that will conceal first off, and as you said they will make poor use of the rifle round as the barrel will lack the length. For some people in some cases the loss of velocity is worth the trade to have a PDW sized firearm, it just depends on what you do with it.

As to adding a caliber , I agree, why would you? This is in no way an ARvsAK argument either , both a suitable rifles. For logistical reasons though , pick one or the other. Your ammo needs are pretty strait forward now , carry that idea over, what about magazines, sights, carry gear, and replacement parts?

Dose your wife have an XD40, dose she have a MBR?

See I wondered about concealment being an issue because this would have been a carry piece if there was a market or selection. I think I could have traded loss of energy to keep my ammo needs down to a minimalist dollar and variation.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other between AK and AR. I like both for different reasons. However to keep ammo straight forward I want both platforms just chambered in the same round.

My wife does not have an XD40. She HAD a Ruger LCP .380 in raspberry pink right up until she shot it the first few times. She had never shot a gun before that. The recoil did not bother her. It was the bang. With hearing protection she was not impressed and changed her mind completely about wanting it. I had to sell it a month after purchase. She is now currently interested in the Ruger SR22 since she now knows what a .22 sounds like. Which unfortunately...will introduce another ammo need. That's an addition I'd be okay with taking on, if it means I can get her out to the range with me again finally.

adding .22 shouldn't be that big of a deal. You say she doesn't go to the range with you know and if getting her to the range only takes .22 then it's an easy solution. The bulk packs only cost $17-$30 (wide vary I know) so if the high end of $30 gets you 500rds then I can't understand where you would find 500rds of anything else to fill its place for any cheaper. Buy a bulk box and be glad it is the first time a woman chose the cheapest option lol.

[etownguy]

if you want .223 pistol like that then a Kel-Tec PMR-30 would be a better choice .22 magnum x 30 rounds. lets face it out of a 5" barrel the .223 is just as effective as 22 magnum

[nemo]

Someone did make a .223 pistol. Heizer Defence made a pocket pistol.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1401125405.431685.jpg (19.82 KiB) Viewed 572 times

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2014/04/22/f ... ar-pistol/

[ProCroation]

Also after some reading, there seems to be discussion centered around .223 from short barrels...lacking in power?

Nearly all rifle rounds lack proper power with a pistol/SBR length barrel.

Understood. Like I said I kept reading that. Just wasn't sure if it was so much loss that it wouldn't be an effective round anymore.

Depends on how you define effective.
If you define effective as in 223 will still make holes in things, then yes it's effective
If you define effective as in 223 will fragment like it's suppose to, then no. 223/5.56 from what I have read needs to be at 2,700fps or above to fragment reliably. 223 is a rifle round and needs a rifle length barrel to do what it's suppose to do. IMHO

You may want to see this
223 tested with barrels from 3" to 18" http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/223rifle.html
Note: these numbers are at the muzzle (or pretty dare close to it)

I'm a firm believer in matching round to barrel length which why I SMH at 2" barrel 357mag stubbies. The round needs a 4" barrel to get going.

I would define effective, for me personally, as a round that would be both viable for stopping a threat as well as potentially being accurate within self defense distances. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[ProCroation]

quote]adding .22 shouldn't be that big of a deal. You say she doesn't go to the range with you know and if getting her to the range only takes .22 then it's an easy solution. The bulk packs only cost $17-$30 (wide vary I know) so if the high end of $30 gets you 500rds then I can't understand where you would find 500rds of anything else to fill its place for any cheaper. Buy a bulk box and be glad it is the first time a woman chose the cheapest option lol.[/quote]

Yeah I don't think adding .22 is even a slight issue for me currently...IF it means she will take interest and tag along for my kind of fun. Like I said, I have no problem with that addition. She wouldn't go an expensive route on me. She's not THAT interested in the hobby and she knows it wouldn't be the smart choice. Hey, I think I have a good wife on my hands. Yeah? lol

[ProCroation]

if you want .223 pistol like that then a Kel-Tec PMR-30 would be a better choice .22 magnum x 30 rounds. lets face it out of a 5" barrel the .223 is just as effective as 22 magnum

Nah, I was looking for straight up .223 fed handgun to consolidate my ammunition needs a little more. 22 Magnum can't be fired from my AR and my AR ammo can't be fired from that Kel-Tec. Kind of defeats my purpose in this search. The reviews sound like that's a fun little gun to have around though. Just not the one for me though.

[ProCroation]

Someone did make a .223 pistol. Heizer Defence made a pocket pistol.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1401125405.431685.jpg

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2014/04/22/f ... ar-pistol/

Yeah that's the same that Cranky pointed out above. Problem is, it's a single shot. I was looking for semi-auto actually. I think this search will prove futile in the end. I think my concern for a potentially thick (front to back) grip, due to the length of the .223 cartridge, makes this whole shebang-a-bang null. Haha.

[Frailer]

Issues already cited aside, building a semi-auto pistol for a round with a chamber pressure almost double that of a 10mm or .44 magnum would prove to be an...interesting...engineering problem.

[guncrank1]

Issues already cited aside, building a semi-auto pistol for a round with a chamber pressure almost double that of a 10mm or .44 magnum would prove to be an...interesting...engineering problem.

Yes it is a design that is been done before
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMT_AutoMag_III

AutoMag .44AutoMag used cut down .308 rifle cases.
Desert Eagle is another large/heavey caliber self feeding handgun.

And right ProC , it would have a massive grip diameter.