Kentucky Armory Club

I figured I'd throw this in here since my reason for a trust is a suppressor...

I have a 'free' .22 suppressor coming to me as a result of a pseudo warranty issue (long story) and I thought I'd go with a trust from here on out for all things NFA. I've been reading and researching and asking a lot of questions over the last couple of months concerning all the options out there, including talking to attorneys I know. I have a trust 'template' that has worked for at least one or two members here, as far as the Jack-Boot Thugs cashed their check and allowed the transfer... I was emailed the same 'template' that others had used, and even downloaded/modified/printed off the packet, but was never satisfied with what I ended up with; at least my paranoid, experienced-with-the-ATF-and other legal entities- part of my brain wasn't...

I know plenty of attorneys including a couple that did NFA trusts, but they start at $200 and go up from there- and that was the 'buddy discount'. There are DIY packages on the world wide web available for purchase for less money from out-of-state companies, but once you download your file, you're on your own.

Two days ago I literally stumbled across Wildcat Trusts while searching. $49 for a real NFA trust, developed by an attorney in Kentucky named Aaron Baker. I thought it would be another vague trust template, so I did more research, and found the attorney was known on other forums, and his trusts are highly regarded in the NFA world. He is also a firearms and NFA item enthusiast himself. I ended up buying the trust last night. I successfully downloaded it today, after failed attempts due to my 1980's War Games computer. Aaron was quick with communicating with me and helping me get it downloaded. -You won't get that from the other 99 dollar trust places!

It was as simple as fill in the blanks on a pdf file with my names and info, and printing it out. No formatting, fixing errors, etc like I had to do with the passed around 'template'. I then compared the Wildcat trust with the template, and I must say, those of you who used it are brave. Yes, you may never have an issue with it, and I hope one day soon the NFA is gone altogether, but if the ATF ever does scrutinize trusts, I would be worried about items held in the template trust! The Wildcat trust is very, very specific in its language, so there is no mistaking that it is an NFA trust. Also, in the template, there is a LOT of unnecessary wording and even a whole section that is either wrong, unnecessary or not used in Kentucky. In contrast, there is wording in the Wildcat trust that does not show up anywhere in the template that absolutely needs to be in an NFA trust.

Bottom line is that if you are looking to do a trust, I would highly recommend http://www.wildcattrust.com/. For 49 bucks, you have the peace of mind that your trust is an NFA trust and was written by an attorney who writes NFA trusts, in your own state.

I know there will be a lot of 'well it worked for me, a trust is a trust...' and 'they'll never come after trusts' and such talk, and I was right there with you until I actually did the research on NFA trusts, and believe me, after seeing it, I would not use the template trust.

-I have no affiliation with this guy whatsoever...

I used him as well and I feel good about the money spent.

I didn't do a 'fill-in-the-blanks' one, so I paid much more. I'm ok with the extra cost for the peace of mind, personally.

Tyler wrote:I used him as well and I feel good about the money spent.

I didn't do a 'fill-in-the-blanks' one, so I paid much more. I'm ok with the extra cost for the peace of mind, personally.

yeah, for Ky clients he does a 'sit-down' for $200 he said.

I need to check this out...I probably should have done this 3 supressors ago though...haha Do I have to pay $200 a piece again to move them to the trust after I set it up?

unfortunately, yes. I have heard rumor that atf was going to allow person to trust lateral movements without the extra fee, but it has not materialized.

kokopelli wrote:unfortunately, yes. I have heard rumor that atf was going to allow person to trust lateral movements without the extra fee, but it has not materialized.

I have also heard that a normal transfer would be required for an item you already have if you want to move it to a trust.

Like you, I have downloaded and discarded a few different versions of "NFA" trusts contemplating this for myself. I must have a similar paranoia as well.

Will definitely be giving this attorney a call in the near future. I haven't dipped my toes in the class III world yet, but have a couple suppressor hosts or potential items I would like to SBR and have never felt comfortable enough to jump in.

No time like the present, I guess. Thanks for the post Koko!

Thanks for posting. I'll have to check it out, considering it's cheaper than anything else AND apparently pretty well put together. Not much longer until I'll need to grab something NFA related.

Definitely, thanks for the post. I may go ahead and get this started and just wait it out for a while and hope the free lateral transfer deal goes through sometime in the near future... $600 worth of permission slips piss me off, the thought of $1200 total for the same three cans reeeeeeeeeally pisses me off...

Hey guys! Kokopelli encouraged me to come sign up over here.

I'm happy to hear that people have been pleased with my products and services. I'll start out by saying that not everyone needs a trust, and if you're happy owning NFA items as an individual, more power to you. I also understand that some folks are perfectly satisfied with a generic trust template, and they don't worry that the ATF will ever scrutinize their trust. If that's you, then I'm not here to argue with you. To each his own!

I will say that I'm proud of the products and services I offer. I started doing trusts after drafting one for my own use in 2011 and having a few people ask me to do one for them. Since then, it's grown into a pretty big part of my practice. I have drafted hundreds of NFA trusts for other Kentuckians in the past few years. At $200 for an attorney-drafted trust, I know that I have one of the lowest prices on the market.

This past year, though, I realized that I was missing out on a huge potential for clients because I can't "practice law" (i.e. give legal advice) outside of Kentucky. I had lots of guys from other states that wanted trusts, but because attorney licensing is state-by-state, I could get in trouble by drafting a trust for them and giving them legal advice without being licensed in their state. The silly thing, though, is that trust law is pretty standard from state to state. So I took a look at some of the other areas of law where people sell template documents without giving legal advice, and realized that I could do that with NFA trusts. That's how I came to create the Wildcat Trust package.

So, what's the difference between paying $49 for a Wildcat Trust package and $200 for me to draft a trust for you? Personalized service is really what it comes down to.

The Wildcat Trust package is a do-it-yourself trust package. It contains a fill-in-the-blank, streamlined version of my NFA trust. (All the important legal protections are exactly the same--the only differences in formatting are to make it easier to use for someone who has to do some of the grunt work themselves.) I include detailed instructions on how to fill in those blanks, and I'm happy to answer general questions in support of this product. My website also has a lot of good information on it, even if you don't buy my trust package. For instance, even if you're using another trust, there are step-by-step instructions for the paper Form 1 and paper Form 4, and also for the eForms Form 1. Check it out at http://www.wildcattrust.com

At Kentuckyguntrustlawyer.com, I provide the full service NFA trust drafting service. Who is this for, and what do you get for the extra money? Well, when you e-mail me with your information (from the submission form directly on the website), I consult with you about who it is best to list on your trust and why, and offer suggestions on how I think the trust structure should best be set up to meet your specific needs. I also often have clients who have lots of questions about how the NFA process works. I answer tons of e-mails with in-depth detailed answers about all sorts of NFA trust law questions. Really, the cost is for you to receive the personal touch. I make sure you get the trust structured the way that works best for you, and I answer any and all questions that you have. I'm not a guy who really likes to toot his own horn, but I often get compliments about my fast turn-around time and knowledgeable answers to questions. When you pay me for a trust drafting service, you can always e-mail me, no matter how far down the line, and I will be there to answer questions for you, draft amendments if you need to make changes to your trust, and just generally provide whatever follow-up services that you need. It's a lifetime of support. (At least my lifetime, that is. I can't promise service from beyond the grave!) If you want to check out that service, the site is http://www.kentuckyguntrustlawyer.com

I'm not a high-pressure sales kind of guy. There were a few questions in this thread about moving individually-owned suppressors to a trust. Unfortunately, you've got to pay a new $200 tax for each item transferred to a trust on a new Form 4. About the only upside is you can keep possession of your suppressor while that transfer is pending. But the point is that I've lost more than a few sales by telling guys that a trust might not be worth it for them if they already own a lot of NFA items as an individual. Trusts just aren't for everyone, and $200 a pop is nothing to sneeze at. It IS an option, if you already have some NFA items, to only put the new items on the trust and leave your old stuff as individually owned, but if you decide to do that, be careful. You don't want to get mixed up on what you can loan out to your other trustees and what you can't!

Anyway, I'm (not surprisingly for a lawyer) a pretty busy guy. So I don't know how often I can check in on this forum, so if you have a specific question for me, feel free to hit up either website and drop me an e-mail. I always try to respond as quickly as I can. If I get some free time, I'll try to check out a few more threads on here. It couldn't hurt to show off my own NFA collection. So far, I've got one SBS (an H&R 870 clone with Magpul furniture), two SBRs (a .458 SOCOM AR15 with a 10.5" barrel and a .300 AAC AR15 with a 6.5" barrel), and I have two cans (both Thompson Machine: an ISIS-2 9mm and a QMF-CQ .45 that I use on my .458 SOCOM for subs).

Thanks for the invite to the forum, kokopelli!

Aaron

Caution: Aaron's trusts are evil!!!







I have 7 stamps on my Aaron Baker trust and want to add more as soon as my wallet allows it.

Also have one of Aaron trusts.

Still waiting on first NFA item though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Okay so here is a different question.

I have the template trust and an Item pending with ATF.

If i had Aaron do a personalized trust rewrite under same trust name adding trustees etc. Would I be able to avoid the extra $200 since the trust still owns the item? It seems like it should be okay but you never know with ATF.

RecoilSensitive: What you're talking about is called a "restatement" of a trust, and it's completely possible.

When you have a revocable living trust, you can make changes to the trust any time that you want by "amending" the trust. If you get to the point where you've made several trust amendments, sometimes it is easier to simply "restate" the entire trust instead, so that you don't have to interpret the trust by reading the original plus a half dozen amendments. Attorneys do this all the time for trusts.

Just about the only thing you can't change on a revocable living trust is the name. A trust's name can never change. You'd have to create a new trust to get a new name. However, every other "term" of a trust can be changed, including all of the wording, as well as who is a trustee, beneficiary, etc. So if you do a trust restatement, your trust will still own all the property that it already owns, because the trust itself still exists--you're just changing the details. No transfer taxes are necessary for a restatement.

Myself, or any other attorney, can do a restatement for you if you're interested. If you'd like to discuss in detail having me do a restatement for you, drop me an e-mail at kyguntrustlawyer@gmail.com.

Thanks,
Aaron

I have one of Aaron's trusts. Highly recommended.

One thing though - BEWARE OF NFA ADDICTION!

There are now 5 items on mine!

^^^
The addiction is real. You'll start looking for your next suppressor/SBR before your last purchase is approved.

RecoilSensitive wrote:Okay so here is a different question.

I have the template trust and an Item pending with ATF.

If i had Aaron do a personalized trust rewrite under same trust name adding trustees etc. Would I be able to avoid the extra $200 since the trust still owns the item? It seems like it should be okay but you never know with ATF.

interested in this question as well. Haven't had any problem with the template several of us here have used, one SBR on it and a can pending, but I could be interested in swapping it over. I wonder if the ATF would even bother checking that the body of the trust changed

ssracer wrote:interested in this question as well. Haven't had any problem with the template several of us here have used, one SBR on it and a can pending, but I could be interested in swapping it over. I wonder if the ATF would even bother checking that the body of the trust changed

So the short answer is: yes, you can do it. It's called a "restatement." It's perfectly legal, and it allows you to change all of the terms of a trust with the exception of the name itself. (Which is why I always suggest short trust names, like "Baker Firearm Trust" as opposed to "The John and Judi Dench Firearms Revocable Living Trust." Once you've got a name like that, you're stuck with it (and engraving it on anything you Form 1).

As for your second question, no, the ATF will never bother checking whether the body of a trust has changed, because the ATF does not keep copies of your trust, to my knowledge. Once they examine it, see that it meets minimum requirements, and approve the tax stamp, they discard the trust documents. They don't want to store all that paperwork. They don't need it. But, as I said above, it wouldn't matter anyway, since both amendments and restatements are legal.

If you got your transfers approved, you don't need a restatement to avoid getting denied by the ATF. Your trust obviously worked for that. You might need a restatement so that your heirs don't run into problems with how your trust is structured when they're actually trying to decide what to do with your firearms once you're gone.

Anyone wanting me to do a trust restatement is more than welcome to e-mail me at either kyguntrustlawyer@gmail.com or wildcattrust@gmail.com. I'm currently examining a "generic" trust that someone used that was floating around here. It doesn't look horrific, honestly, but it's also not a specialized NFA trust, has some unnecessary language that might be problematic, and is missing some good language that could save some headaches down the road. Once I finish reading it over a little more closely, I'll have a better idea of whether I'd recommend actually doing a restatement. I'm not trying to make anyone spend money on services they don't need.

Aaron

Thanks for checking in Aaron. I have contacted you with questions in the past, still havent made the plunge, and you were always timely with a response. You can expect my business in the near future.

In the process of using the Wildcat trust now. Thanks!

I will be contacting Aaron for a restatement of my template trust as soon as my current form 4 is approved. Should be in a month or two.

Reviving a nearly 3 year old thread.
I purchased a trust restatement template from Wildcat Trust 2 days ago. Best $49 I have ever spent. I downloaded it, filled in the blanks & printed it out. After I get it notarized on Monday, it will be finished. I used the "generic" trust many on here have used, no problems getting 5 tax stamps. But I was not comfortable with some of the wording. I am happy with my Wildcat trust and should have done this 2 1/2 years ago.