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 Post subject: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#1  PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:32 am 
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I am both intrigued and confused...but IMO however they got around the NFA for BATFE approval only highlights how completely ridiculous the NFA is to begin with

https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2018/01 ... -approval/


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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#2  PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:15 am 
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yeah I was looking at this last night trying to figure what the deal with it is... and then can we do the same thing if we build off of a stripped lower?


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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#3  PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:52 am 
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I wondered if this could be done...given the way the law reads....

"they are using the same argument as for the Mossberg Shockwave [14" barrel, OAL more than 26"]. The way the law is written, MAY be interpreted as if it is OVER 26" it is NOT classified as an SBR, even if the barrel is under 16". Since it does not fall into the classification of SBR, or Rifle, its in that "Firearm" gray area"


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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#4  PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:01 pm 
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After re-reading the applicable definitions, there are only two workarounds that occur to me:

- the barrel isn’t rifled, *or*

- they played the semantics game and successfully argued that this thing was “made from a rifle” but has a length of over 26 inches.


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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#5  PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:04 pm 
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Or the trigger function...


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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#6  PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:23 pm 
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kokopelli wrote:
Or the trigger function...


That’s true. Perhaps one has to pull the trigger twice. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#7  PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:47 pm 
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Shot show cannot arrive soon enough... if it's the 26" thing then that's a game changer!


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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#8  PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:39 pm 
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If barrel is not rifled then there is no accuracy. Even shooting slugs out of smoothbores is like throwing a dart at the state fair game booth. Hitting center is a challenge.

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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#9  PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:31 pm 
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It is rifled. Confirmed from the source. The current theory is that it uses, and MUST USE, the binary trigger that allows for one shot at the pull of the trigger and one shot at the release of the trigger. The wording of the laws talk about trigger PULL, and trigger FUNCTION. They are different. A pull and release is two functions, a pull is just a pull. A rifle can not fire more than one round per trigger pull. A machine gun fires more than one round per trigger function. The binary trigger is in the middle, neither rifle nor machine gun. This means their trigger COULD NOT be placed or used in a semi-automatic mode. It's gotta be all binary, all the time.

Again, just the current most logical theory of how this thing is skirting the laws. We'll have to wait until SHOT to see the magic.

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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#10  PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:37 pm 
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There's another theory involving barrel length and some receiver differences. If you permanently attached the barrel to the receiver, effectively making the receiver part of the barrel, an 11.5" barrel plus the length of the permanently attached receiver would be over 16"

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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#11  PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:41 pm 
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They have definitely ignited the rumor mill with this one


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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#12  PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:32 pm 
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Really curious what the price is going to be.


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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#13  PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:58 pm 
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Livewire wrote:
Really curious what the price is going to be.



It will be pricey :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#14  PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:18 pm 
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How are that going to keep it from being copied ? Once some takes it apart they can make their own. So you will see them prices about normal.


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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#15  PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:29 pm 
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Just when they sell a bunch of them ATF will do whatever the hell they want because...


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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#16  PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:38 pm 
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Dustin wrote:
How are that going to keep it from being copied ? Once some takes it apart they can make their own. So you will see them prices about normal.


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why would they even have to take it apart. Seems to me Franklin Armory is going to have to explain why it's legal.

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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#17  PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:39 pm 
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Whootsinator wrote:
There's another theory involving barrel length and some receiver differences. If you permanently attached the barrel to the receiver, effectively making the receiver part of the barrel, an 11.5" barrel plus the length of the permanently attached receiver would be over 16"


I don’t think that would fly, as barrel length is measured from the muzzle to the breech face. But the “trigger function” loophole you mentioned is almost certainly it.

Here are the applicable definitions:

Rifle definition: a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

Short-barreled rifle definition: a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;

OR

A weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

Since the barrel is shorter than 16 inches, it has to skirt the rifle definition somehow. Omitting the rifling is one way, but since it has a buttstock you’ve made a shotgun, even if it is designed to fire single projectiles. Since I assume this thing fires metallic cartridges, the only remaining loophole is the “only a single projectile...for each single pull of the trigger.”

If you’re pedantic, a binary trigger isn’t designed to *only* fire a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. It’s designer to fire a single projectile when the trigger is pulled *and* a single projectile when it’s released.

This also skirts the machine-gun definition by only firing one shot per trigger function.

Assuming this is true, it would *seem* to prohibit the trigger from functioning in non-binary mode. But when it comes to tech branch rulings, who knows?

I’m going to go out on a very long limb and predict you have to pull the trigger twice for each shot. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#18  PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:40 am 
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Frailer wrote:
I’m going to go out on a very long limb and predict you have to pull the trigger twice for each shot. ;)


I thought about that possibility, too. I'm interested to hear more about it.

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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#19  PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:34 am 
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In the picture it looks like it has the same red plate that their BFS2 trigger pack comes with. It’s too blurry to tell if it says “safe”, “fire” and “binary”.


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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#20  PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:21 pm 
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Smoothbore folks
I'll pass.

Franklin Armory Reformation: It’s a Smoothbore 5.56
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/0 ... bore-5-56/

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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#21  PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:18 pm 
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No thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#22  PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:50 pm 
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Lot of arguments in the comments section. Saying the writers need glasses because those who shot it say it is definitely rifled..

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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#23  PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:26 pm 
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BIGC wrote:
Lot of arguments in the comments section. Saying the writers need glasses because those who shot it say it is definitely rifled..

Most of those comments weren't up yet when I posted that. We'll see.

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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#24  PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:50 pm 
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Smoothbore.
LMAO

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 Post subject: Re: 11.5” non-NFA AR with a stock
Post Number:#25  PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:03 pm 
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And the article disappears from the site. :lol:
From accessible from the link above though

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