Should a CCDW holder get involved in someone elses fight?

[ChopperDoc]

http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_fil ... ign=Buffer

Monday, December 09, 2013 Filed in: Techniques & Training, Self defense

A week or so ago, Greg Ellifritz (who’s a police officer by trade) posted a story about a call in which he was involved. Seems that a male store security officer (who is also a cop, albeit part-time) had a running fight with a female shoplifter that ended up on the side of a thoroughfare. The suspect got the bright idea of yelling “rape!” in an attempt to elicit some help on the part of passers-by.

She got it in the form of a citizen with a valid concealed carry permit. (I won’t go into the details of the encounter, but I encourage you to read Greg’s account for the whole story.)

The person with the CCW intervened on behalf of someone he didn’t know, against someone he didn’t know, in a situation where he was not cognizant of all of the relevant facts. It’s natural, I think, to believe that the person yelling “rape” would be the innocent. The suspect certainly did, which was her plan!

This incident could have turned out very differently. The CCW holder could have shot the cop/security officer, the security guy could have shot him, or the responding officers could have mistaken the CCW for an accomplice of either of the others and shot him.

It’s easy to think of ourselves, possessors of valid concealed carry licenses, as upright citizens being on the side of truth and virtue and a line of defense against the evil in this world. The language of much of the training industry tends to reinforce these notions: note how many people use the word ‘sheepdog’ with regard to concealed carry.

The problem is that some people, such as our CCW holder in this story, take that stuff seriously. There is a bit of daydreamer in each of us, one who sees himself as being the hero in a dire circumstance: riding in to save the damsel from harm. Some segments of the training industry are happy to reinforce, or at least not discourage, such beliefs. This incident should serve as a counterpoint to that, as things are not always what they seem!

I caution my students that they should look at their concealed firearm as being intended for the protection of themselves and their loved ones against an identified lethal threat, and not necessarily for the protection of the public at large. I can imagine how this guy felt when he heard what he truly believed to be someone in need of assistance, but at the same time he could have gotten himself, or someone else, unjustifiably killed.

We start with the concept that the threat of lethal force (your drawn gun) is only applicable when you or someone else is facing a lethal threat. In this case, assuming the situation is as Greg reports it, I don’t see where there was a lethal threat which warranted the CCW holder to have his own gun in play. Generally, in the absence of an immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm, the lethal tool (the gun) is not the proper choice whether you’re protecting yourself or protecting others.

That brings us back to pretending to be something you’re not: this fellow was using a lethal threat (his gun) simply to get someone else to follow his orders. That’s what police officers do, and are allowed to do, but that’s not what private citizens carrying a concealed handgun are allowed to do. We are not cops, but someone apparently forgot to explain that distinction to him.

Intervention with a concealed pistol is fraught with risk. You first need to ask yourself if there is a true danger of death (or grave harm) to another human being. If someone is attacking you that’s an easy thing to answer, but when dealing with two other parties it’s a question that requires a little conscious effort.

Are you absolutely certain that the players in the situation are what they appear to be? If someone walks into the mall and starts shooting it’s a lot easier to make that analysis than in the case Greg relates. Getting involved with lethal force in a scenario where you end up shooting the wrong person is a grave error (and being shot because you were seen by someone else as the bad guy would be a grave consequence.)

It’s important, I believe, to think about this kind of incident ahead of time and decide the parameters under which you would act. In what cases would you even consider intervention to protect another? How will you be sure that you should? What can you do to ascertain the players before you bring your gun to bear? Finally, how might you deal with the aftermath of having shot what turned out to be an innocent person?

These are not easy questions, nor should they be.

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The comments are thought provoking as well.

I should mention that rape (forcible intercourse or sodomy) is considered a justification for the use of deadly force in the State of Kentucky. The author of this article does not believe the CCDW holder in this scenario acted appropriately by drawing his weapon. I would say it would depend on the circumstances, but REGARDLESS, when you are coming to the aid of another person whom you do not know be VERY SURE of the situation before you use deadly force.

[son of liberty]

KY law deals with this issue, in fact its part of the whole video that you got to watch.

[Toddstang]

I thought the answer was a clear cut NO.

[Rem700]

In that situation I may have intervened but not with my weapon. No one was in immediate danger of death or serious injury yet. However upon seeing a guy with handcuffs I would probably pretty quickly realize he was trying to arrest her. Very good and thought provoking read.

[Frailer]

I am not a sheep dog.

I am a porcupine.

As has been mentioned, KY law addresses this. Regardless of what the CCW holder *thought* was happening, deadly force would *not* be justified in this specific situation.

[Frailer]

Are we being animals now?

Can i be a t rex?

Ive always wanted to be a T rex

Be careful what you wish for:

[ChopperDoc]

I thought the answer was a clear cut NO.

No, it is not. The law clearly (as mud) states that you can come to the defense of another and use force or deadly force if it is being used on them. Rape is considered a reason to use force or even deadly force in Kentucky.

The kicker for you is this: Under the law you are not afforded the same leeway as if you are defending your own life. The situation will be viewed as it actually is, and not how you perceive it when you come to the defense of someone else. If you are defending yourself and you mistakenly believe that you are in imminent danger and you use force when it was not actually necessary but the court (or DA) determines that your fear was reasonable, you may be found justified in your use of force or deadly force. That protection does not exist when coming to the defense of someone else.

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/statute.aspx?id=19672

I found nothing in the KRS about the T-REX.

[Mike]

The CCDW law states something t the fact of if it is someone else's safety it is for what it is in reality, not what they perceive it to be. If there is a movie being filmed and there are actors with fake guns and you(not a cop, but a citizen) shoot one of the "bad guys" and it's not what it was perceived to be(meaning their life was not in danger) you just committed murder at worst, manslaughter at best.

If you DO get involved, meaning shooting someone, you better be DAMN SURE that it is how it appears. If you are wrong you are going to prison.

It's different for cops thugh. For cops it is what it appears. Not saying I agree or disagree, just the way it is.

[Dashammer]

Great read, an IMHO maybe the best questions asked on any gun discussion I have seen. What is the your play in a situation where you and yours are not the possible victum of a justifiable use of deadly force in the defense of others.

Your standing in line at the shop an bop waiting to get your mega lottery ticket and some fool trys too rob the place, but they are not pointing the heater at you and yours but you wife is setting in the car just outside the door. Alot of what ifs there my friend.