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need NFA experts advice...
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Author:  kokopelli [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:  need NFA experts advice...

Here's one I'm not sure about simply because I don't have all the facts yet- neither does he.

A friend of mine -lives in Indiana- had been to his father's in Ohio for a week after his Dad was sent to the hospital. He called this afternoon and said that his Dad died this morning.
He know I am a gun nut and know a little about the NFA stuff - I have 1 can and another form 1 pending... so he gave me the lowdown. His Dad had amassed an impressive collection of NFA items. Multiple MG's and AOW's. His Step-Mom told him that Dad left ALL the gun stuff to him alone. His was calling to ask my help in physically moving all of it home to Indiana. His question was 'what do I need to do? I don't want to get stopped with a van full of machine guns...'
So I explained the whole tax-stamp procedure and individual vs Trust ownership, etc. I sent him a picture of a returned stamped form so he knows what to look for.

I talked to him more and found out that he believes Step-Mom did mention that it is a Trust that was left to him. At this point I am assuming that my friend is named as Trustee and beneficiary.
I know that Form 5's are used to transfer to an heir without a new tax, but is it even needed with a trust? I don't believe so from what I've read...

So- I know the MG's need to be formed to move across the states, but is only good for a year each.
How does the Trust need to be handled? Can it just be left as-is set up in Ohio, and he can take possession of the items, or does the Trust's address need to be amended/moved to Indiana?

Right now he's dealing with funeral arrangements and family, but I told him I'd start researching this stuff for him.

Author:  Toddinlou [ Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:02 am ]
Post subject:  need NFA experts advice...

If he is on the trust then he should be OK with possession. In order to possess he will need the proper ATF paperwork. A form four for each NFA item. I'm sure his dad will need to be removed from the trust in the future but that's not that pressing. Being setup in a trust is a key advantage as long as he is on the trust as opposed to an individual transfer. Should he have questions I would seriously recommend working with a Class III dealer as well as contacting the ATF directly. The NFA branch is very nice as long as you are on the right side of things and he obviously is. As for you helping in transporting an NFA item I would not go near it unless he was there as you are not on the trust. It's one thing to have them in your vehicle if he is with you as he is still "in control" of them where if he were not with you it could end not so well.

Author:  guncrank1 [ Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: need NFA experts advice...

The trustee would be needed to be with the machine guns.
Inheritance covers the ownership with the trust . Proper forms are required.

Sorry not a NFA expert but familiar with them.

Author:  Wyldman [ Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: need NFA experts advice...

I highly recommend you contact rext and ask him. He knows more about NFA stuff than anyone I know. He is a hella nice guy and would be very willing to help with paperwork & procedures. Tell him I sent you, he might not hang up on you. (J/k)

Author:  Dustin [ Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:51 am ]
Post subject:  need NFA experts advice...

There is a form you need to have to take them a cross state lines.


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Author:  Rext [ Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: need NFA experts advice...

You need to leave them as is in Ohio right now.Dont move them yet.The executor of the estate will have to be involved as well and be the custodian of the guns until everything is sorted out. You need the trust to see how things are set up.Maybe his mom has that info? It would help if you had the form 4s as well.Then you would know for a fact how they were transferred.
Here is some info from ATF website:

9.5.3 Distribution of estate firearms. A decedent’s registered NFA firearms may be conveyed taxexempt
to lawful heirs. These distributions are not treated as voluntary “transfers” under the NFA.
Rather, they are considered to be involuntary “transfers by operation of law.” Under this concept, ATF
will honor State court decisions relative to the ownership and right to possess NFA firearms. So, when
State courts authorize the distribution of estate firearms to decedents’ lawful heirs, ATF will approve the
distribution and registration to the heirs if the transactions are otherwise lawful. A lawful heir is anyone
named in the decedent’s will or, in the absence of a will, anyone entitled to inherit under the laws of the
State in which the decedent last resided.
9.5.3.1 Distributions to heirs. Although these distributions are not treated as “transfers” for
purposes of the NFA, Form 5 must be filed by an executor or administrator to register a firearm
to a lawful heir and the form must be approved by ATF prior to distribution to the heir. The
form should be filed as soon as possible. However, ATF will allow a reasonable time to arrange
for the transfer. This generally should be done before probate is closed. When a firearm is being
transferred to an individual heir, his or her fingerprints on FBI Forms FD-258 must accompany
the transfer application. The application will be denied if the heir’s receipt or possession of the
firearm would violate Federal, State, or local law. The law enforcement certification on the form
need not be completed. The form should also be accompanied by documentation showing the
executor’s or administrator’s authority to distribute the firearm as well as the heir’s entitlement
to the firearm. Distributions to heirs should not be made until Forms 5 are approved. Executors
and administrators are not required to have estate firearms registered to them prior to distribution
to lawful heirs.
9.5.3.2 Distributions to persons outside the estate. Distributions of NFA firearms by
executors or administrators to persons outside the estate (not beneficiaries) are “transfers” under
the NFA and require an ATF-approved transfer form. Transfers of serviceable firearms to other
entities or persons require an approved Form 4. Form 4 applications must be accompanied by
the applicable transfer tax, and, if the transferee is an individual, the transferee’s fingerprints on
FBI Forms FD-258. Applications will be denied if transferees’ receipt or possession of the
firearms would violate Federal, State, or local law. Also, Form 4 applications to transfer
firearms to individuals must contain the law enforcement certification of an appropriate law
enforcement official. See Section 9.8 for further information on these certifications. Form 4
applications to transfer firearms to non-FFLs residing outside the State in which the estate is
being administered will be denied. Form 4 transfers should not be made until the transfers are
approved.
9.5.3.3 Uncertainty about the registration status of decedents’ firearmsIn some cases, an
executor or administrator of an estate may be uncertain whether the decedent’s firearms are
registered to the decedent in the NFRTR. Perhaps the executor or administrator is unable to
locate the decedent’s registration documents. As discussed in Section 9.2, if the decedent’s
firearms are not registered to him/her in the NFRTR, the firearms are contraband and may not be
lawfully possessed or transferred. If the executor or administrator cannot locate the decedent’s
registration documents, he/she should contact the NFA Branch in writing and inquire about the
firearms’ registration status. This inquiry should be accompanied by documents showing the
executor’s or administrator’s authority under State law to represent the decedent and dispose of
the decedent’s firearms. Although ATF is generally prohibited from disclosing tax information,
including the identity of persons to whom NFA firearms are registered, ATF may disclose such
information to persons lawfully representing registrants of NFA firearms.


It may be a case that he could transfer the items to himself on a form 4(as said above without the CLEO signature since thats primarily why people do trusts anyway) and it may be even better than the trust route.That way it clears the whole trust thing up.You would have to consult a lawyer about the trust,but I think a Revocable Living Trust cannot be changed after the death of the grantor? I dont recall exactly. Tell him to leave the guns where they are until he gets a proper form 4 transferring them to him.Just make sure they are safe and secure.Have the Executor contact ATF branch (304-616-4500) to start things but I would have all the form 4's handy to start with.If you cant find the forms,look at the dealer info they came from on the form you have and contact them to see if they have a copy? I keep copies of all form 4s that go through my hands.I look at this differently than most.
I want to preserve these guns as much as anything because there will be no more for us to play with.NFA weapons are lost every year because they do not get transferred correctly or too much time passes by.I helped a guy get eleven machineguns legally transferred once that had been several years since the original owners death.Now they are still available for future generations.Lastly if he decides to sell them,I would be interested in them or help him out with them.

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