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 Post subject: Re: No gun experts in Lexington SWAT?
Post Number:#26  PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:14 pm 
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I think we all know the REAL reason they're insisting on MP5s:

They are the coolest subgun ever.

Not the best, mind you...but definitely the coolest.

That said, if I was buying a subgun for departmental use I would opt for P90s. When I'm taking a road trip my PS90 is the gun that gets tossed in the trunk.


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 Post subject: Re: No gun experts in Lexington SWAT?
Post Number:#27  PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:41 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: No gun experts in Lexington SWAT?
Post Number:#28  PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:56 pm 
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It is a myth that 5.56 penetrates more than handgun rounds.

When using mil spec FMJ it is true, but PD's don't issue/approve FMJ projectiles(generally). The most popular rounds, and nearly impossible to find in-stock, are the bonded copper rounds such as the Federal TBBC. These rounds are nearly ideal for urban use if you put any faith in properly conduced ballistic gelatin testing.

If I was on their SWAT team I would want a full-auto MP5SD to shoot at the range.


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 Post subject: Re: No gun experts in Lexington SWAT?
Post Number:#29  PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:24 pm 
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Tyler wrote:
It is a myth that 5.56 penetrates more than handgun rounds.

When using mil spec FMJ it is true, but PD's don't issue/approve FMJ projectiles(generally). The most popular rounds, and nearly impossible to find in-stock, are the bonded copper rounds such as the Federal TBBC. These rounds are nearly ideal for urban use if you put any faith in properly conduced ballistic gelatin testing.



I wanted to say this, but I don't have any links or articles to back it up.

Recommended LE Duty Cartridges:
Quote:
The best LE 5.56 mm/.223 loads for intermediate barrier penetration using 1/9 and faster twist barrels are the 5.56 mm Federal 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3) and 5.56 mm Winchester 64 gr solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B) developed for the FBI, along with the outstanding new Black Hills 5.56 mm 50 gr TSX loading. The Hornady 5.56 mm 55 gr GMX is another acceptable option.

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 Post subject: Re: No gun experts in Lexington SWAT?
Post Number:#30  PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:33 pm 
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Whootsinator wrote:
Tyler wrote:
It is a myth that 5.56 penetrates more than handgun rounds.

When using mil spec FMJ it is true, but PD's don't issue/approve FMJ projectiles(generally). The most popular rounds, and nearly impossible to find in-stock, are the bonded copper rounds such as the Federal TBBC. These rounds are nearly ideal for urban use if you put any faith in properly conduced ballistic gelatin testing.



I wanted to say this, but I don't have any links or articles to back it up.

Recommended LE Duty Cartridges:
Quote:
The best LE 5.56 mm/.223 loads for intermediate barrier penetration using 1/9 and faster twist barrels are the 5.56 mm Federal 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3) and 5.56 mm Winchester 64 gr solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B) developed for the FBI, along with the outstanding new Black Hills 5.56 mm 50 gr TSX loading. The Hornady 5.56 mm 55 gr GMX is another acceptable option.


http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#BARRIER_BLIND_LOADS


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 Post subject: Re: No gun experts in Lexington SWAT?
Post Number:#31  PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:36 pm 
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Interesting, I haven't seen that SD Ammo overview before. Awesome info, in a concise format. I was citing what Dr. Roberts said himself regarding LE Duty Rounds.

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 Post subject: Re: No gun experts in Lexington SWAT?
Post Number:#32  PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:39 pm 
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I think most, if not all, of that info is from/based on Dr. Roberts' work. There are links to his testing and opinions throughout the overview.


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 Post subject: Re: No gun experts in Lexington SWAT?
Post Number:#33  PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:45 pm 
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It looks like a lot is based on info from http://www.firearmstactical.com/ as well. I've never heard of them.

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 Post subject: Re: No gun experts in Lexington SWAT?
Post Number:#34  PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:50 pm 
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No no
MP-5 with RIP 9mm best ever :llama:


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 Post subject: Re: No gun experts in Lexington SWAT?
Post Number:#35  PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:17 pm 
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I love the idea that the guns they have are worn out. I have several guns over a century old that I shoot with some regularity, and several more that are 60 and older. Such silliness. I call BS. They just want new toys to play with.

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 Post subject: Re: No gun experts in Lexington SWAT?
Post Number:#36  PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:05 pm 
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Vividia wrote:
I love the idea that the guns they have are worn out. I have several guns over a century old that I shoot with some regularity, and several more that are 60 and older. Such silliness. I call BS. They just want new toys to play with.

Or they may have a budget surplus and need to find something to spend it on so they don't lose it next year.


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 Post subject: Re: No gun experts in Lexington SWAT?
Post Number:#37  PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:10 pm 
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rustynuts wrote:
Vividia wrote:
I love the idea that the guns they have are worn out. I have several guns over a century old that I shoot with some regularity, and several more that are 60 and older. Such silliness. I call BS. They just want new toys to play with.

Or they may have a budget surplus and need to find something to spend it on so they don't lose it next year.


Which justifies nothing. This entire deal is BS.

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 Post subject: Re: No gun experts in Lexington SWAT?
Post Number:#38  PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:16 pm 
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Wyldman wrote:
rustynuts wrote:
Vividia wrote:
I love the idea that the guns they have are worn out. I have several guns over a century old that I shoot with some regularity, and several more that are 60 and older. Such silliness. I call BS. They just want new toys to play with.

Or they may have a budget surplus and need to find something to spend it on so they don't lose it next year.


Which justifies nothing. This entire deal is BS.

From the Wyldphone

Very true. They do the same thing where I work though. Gotta spend it all to justify getting it next year.


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 Post subject: Re: No gun experts in Lexington SWAT?
Post Number:#39  PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:28 pm 
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Quote:
If I had an AR to fight bad guys in my house I would be afraid of over penetration and a chance of my kids, neighbors being hit by a stray or ricochette from the 223/5.56. You and I both know that SWAT isn't going to put frangible bullets in their guns.


here, and most agencies in the US, for SWAt and also patrol officers who have an AR use/are issued Federal LE tactical soft points-
this:
http://le.atk.com/ammunition/federal/rifle/details.aspx?id=679

our range guys did a drywall shoot and showed this round has less penetration than the .40 duty ammo.


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 Post subject: Re: No gun experts in Lexington SWAT?
Post Number:#40  PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:19 pm 
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I got a dozen of them from the KSP back when they traded for 416s. They were all sloppy and beat to hell. They don't necessarily get worn out and they can be repaired with new parts but they are probably just wanting to spend some money? I will have to ask around and find out why they will stay with them. I still have a couple of the KSP guns. I also have one that came from NASA in Cape Canaveral. There was an article about one they had that had documented over one million rounds with minimal repairs. So wearing one out is nearly impossible I think.
I would also say that there is a training aspect they have to deal with for liability issues. It may be cheaper to keep them than retrain with new Select fire ARs? Post sample MP5s are around $2500 used. New isn't a whole lot more.
I would cite size and control as a couple of reasons to keep them. I went to an MP5 school once and the instructor had an SD. He put 30 rounds inside a orange 3" sticky target leaving the outside ring. One trigger pull until empty. I believe it was at 7 yards? I can't recall. He did it twice and if anyone thinks it's easy I would beg to differ and let you try all you want for a small wager.. You buy the ammo.
He also did double taps. He said if they didn't touch they didn't count. I saw him do it numerous times. So if these guys are proficient with the weapon why change? Just my observations.

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