SBR vs pistol vs AOW vs firearm?

[gaston_kalash]

http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf

Can someone explain this ATF letter to me? What I got out of it is you can take a ar pistol and put a vertical grip and "short stock?" on it as long as it is over 26" over all length. This makes no sense to me because most sbr ar 15's are over 26" anyway. Can anyone enlighten me on this?


Sent from somewhere over yonder.

[Dustin]

The barrel is under 16 inches so its still a pistol. If you put a forward grip on it and no stock its a AOW All other Weapons. If you have a barrel under 16 inches and a stock its an SBR and you can put a forward grip because its a rifle and not a pistol.

That should be about as clear as mud.

[ssracer]

The "short stock" they are referring to is the pistol grip, not a shoulder stock.

[gaston_kalash]

That's what I've always thought but reading that ATF letter it says it's ok to put a vert grip on a ar pistol with a 10.5" barrel as long as it had a oal of 26"


Sent from somewhere over yonder.

[Whootsinator]

Dustin, read the last paragraph of the letter again.

If over 26" OAL the firearm would NOT be classified as an AOW with the addition of a VFG, as long as the firearm is not concealed.

As Racer said, the 'short stock' is referring to a pistol grip, NOT a shoulder stock.

[guncrank1]

That's what I've always thought but reading that ATF letter it says it's ok to put a vert grip on a ar pistol with a 10.5" barrel as long as it had a oal of 26"


Sent from somewhere over yonder.

Actually that letter is a varence letter for Franklin Armory, if you decied to put a VFG on a AR pistol with a barrel length of 10.5 inch or more and a OAL of 26 plus that does not mean YOU are legal.
It means you probley are OK doing so.

The OAL requirement excedes the 26 " length of a AOW.

[gaston_kalash]

That's what I've always thought but reading that ATF letter it says it's ok to put a vert grip on a ar pistol with a 10.5" barrel as long as it had a oal of 26"


Sent from somewhere over yonder.

Actually that letter is a varence letter for Franklin Armory, if you decied to put a VFG on a AR pistol with a barrel length of 10.5 inch or more and a OAL of 26 plus that does not mean YOU are legal.
It means you probley are OK doing so.

The OAL requirement excedes the 26 " length of a AOW.[/quote
Kinda like the sig brace letter?


Sent from somewhere over yonder.

[Niceguy]

My 10.5" pistol with a Sig brace was over 26" OAL by a little.

[guncrank1]

My 10.5" pistol with a Sig brace was over 26" OAL by a little.

The length is measure from the end of buffer tube to muzzle.
Arm brace does not count as to OAL

As too refernce to "short stock" the complete definition is a "short stock that projects 90 degrees from bore, that allows the firearm to be fired with one hand"

[Rext]

The overall length is what the fuss is about. This is how Mossberg gets away with their shotgun with the 14" barell,its over 26"

[WLJ]

Is someone actually expecting ATF rules to make sense again? Trying to understand the ATF is like trying to understand women.

[gaston_kalash]

Is someone actually expecting ATF rules to make sense again? Trying to understand the ATF is like trying to understand women.

^^^ EXACTLY


Sent from somewhere over yonder.

[Frailer]

My 10.5" pistol with a Sig brace was over 26" OAL by a little.

The length is measure from the end of buffer tube to muzzle.
Arm brace does not count as to OAL

As too refernce to "short stock" the complete definition is a "short stock that projects 90 degrees from bore, that allows the firearm to be fired with one hand"

Items don't have to be permanently attached to count toward overall length. *Barrel* length, yes, but not OAL.

But your point is well made. Just because BATFE said it's OK for Franklin Armory doesn't make it OK for anyone else.

[guncrank1]

My 10.5" pistol with a Sig brace was over 26" OAL by a little.

The length is measure from the end of buffer tube to muzzle.
Arm brace does not count as to OAL

As too refernce to "short stock" the complete definition is a "short stock that projects 90 degrees from bore, that allows the firearm to be fired with one hand"

Items don't have to be permanently attached to count toward overall length. *Barrel* length, yes, but not OAL.

But your point is well made. Just because BATFE said it's OK for Franklin Armory doesn't make it OK for anyone else.

Ok pretend I don't know nothing about the subject, can you site a refernce as to why a arm brace would count toward OAL?

[Frailer]

According to 27 CFR 479.11 overall length is "the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore"

But ATF regs are fuzzy things; if you can cite a reference that states removable attachments don't count toward overall length I'll retract my statement. The last thing I want to do is encourage illegal activity.

[guncrank1]

There is no citation , the arm brace is not stock

[Frailer]

How is the fact that the SIG brace isn't a stock relevant?

And where did you find that one of the two "extreme ends" must be the buffer tube?

[guncrank1]

How is the fact that the SIG brace isn't a stock relevant?

And where did you find that one of the two "extreme ends" must be the buffer tube?

The sample submitted to the Techincal Branch was a Franklin Armory AR pistol,
It was measureded that way.
Happens to be that the exterme end is end of the buffer tube of the sample.

The arm brace is not a stock and was not designed to used as such.

And any firearm that has a detachable or folding stock is measured attached or extended out in the locked position.
Arm braces are not locked or attached.

[Frailer]

How would you measure the OAL of this:

[Wyldman]

How Cranky would measure it is of no concern. How would BATFE agents measure it and would any two of them agree? The capricious nature of BATFE is mind-boggling! Everyone there has an opinion, right, wrong, or indifferent, but they are all "law"!

[guncrank1]

How would you measure the OAL of this:

From the muzzle to the end of the bracket that holds the arm brace.

[Rext]

Cranky is correct. The arm brace is not a stock. It was never designed to be fired from the shoulder and it is removable. The arm brace would be used on a pistol,which we are talking about. So the barell can be as short or long as you want it to be.
If you put a forward grip on it(or any pistol),you have created an AOW. The same situation if you put a forward grip on an HK SP 89 or if you put a vertical grip on the rail of a 1911 or the like.
If you have a weapon that was designed from the beginning to be fired from the SHOULDER it is a rifle. If the barell is less than 16" it is a SBR. If it is a shoulder fired shotgun with a barell less than 18" it is a SBS. If the shotgun was not designed to be fired from the shoulder and is not a pistol but has a barell under 18" but greater overall fixed length over 26" it does not fall under any NFA restrictions.
Pretty simple.

[ChopperDoc]

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