Gun trusts under scrutiny??

[Rext]

I just read this on another site and cut and paste it


Now NFA gun trusts are coming under attack by the NY Pravda:
Trusts Offer a Legal Loophole for Buying Restricted Guns
By ERICA GOODE

A growing number of shooting enthusiasts are creating legal trusts to acquire machine guns, silencers or other items whose sale is restricted by federal law — a mechanism that bypasses the need to obtain law enforcement approval or even undergo criminal background checks.

The trusts, called gun trusts, are intended to allow the owners of the firearms to share them legally with family members and to pass them down responsibly. They have gained in popularity, gun owners say, in part because they may offer protection from future legislation intended to prohibit the possession or sale of the firearms.

But because of a loophole in federal regulations, buying restricted firearms through a trust also exempts the trust’s members from requirements that apply to individual buyers, including being fingerprinted, obtaining the approval of a chief local law enforcement officer and undergoing a background check.

Lawyers who handle the trusts and gun owners who have used them say that a majority of customers who buy restricted firearms through trusts do not do so to avoid such requirements. And most gun dealers continue to require background checks for the representative of the trust who picks up the firearm. But not all do.

Christopher J. Dorner, the former Los Angeles police officer who embarked on a weeklong assault on law enforcement officers this month that ended with his death on Feb. 12, said in a rambling 11,000-word manifesto that he had used a gun trust to buy silencers and a short-barreled rifle from a gun store in Nevada without a background check.

Referring to a computer program available from the personal finance software company Quicken, Mr. Dorner wrote, “I was able to use a trust account that I created on quicken will maker and a $10 notary charge at a mailbox etc. to obtain them legally.” Mr. Dorner was not a felon and probably would have passed a background check had he received one.

Mike Campbell, a spokesman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which enforces firearms regulations, said that applications filed with the A.T.F. for transfers of restricted firearms to trusts or corporations have more than doubled in the last four years, to more than 39,000 in 2012 from about 15,000 in 2008. He said the increase was largely attributable to the growth in the number of trusts.

Mr. Campbell confirmed that under current regulations, background checks were not required for the buying of restricted firearms through trusts. The agency, he added, was aware of the loophole and was reviewing changes to close it.

Lawyers who prepare gun trusts said requests for the documents had been increasing in recent months as proposals for gun legislation proliferated in state legislatures and on Capitol Hill. They said some gun owners were even creating trusts for nonrestricted firearms like semiautomatic rifles and pistols, hoping to protect them against the specter of future legislation.

The cost of setting up a trust can vary from a small amount for an online form to $100 to $2,500 in lawyers’ fees, depending on location and the type of trust.

The sale and possession of silencers, fully automatic guns manufactured before 1986 and other firearms and accessories that fall under the 1934 National Firearms Act are legal in many states. But the A.T.F. keeps a registry of the firearms and must approve their sale, a process that can take several months, and the buyer must pay a $200 tax.

J. W. Hagan, a computer administrator in Jacksonville, Fla., said he created a trust to buy silencers, which have become popular for target shooting and hunting and can be owned legally in a growing number of states. He said the trust would ensure that if he died, his firearms would remain legal. The trust would also allow his fiancée to use the silencers once the couple married.

“If I didn’t have a trust, she wouldn’t even be able to have the password for my safe,” he said.

David Goldman, an estate lawyer in Jacksonville who pioneered the use of gun trusts six years ago, said most dealers carried out background checks for restricted firearms. He called the notion that criminals might use the trusts to buy the firearms through a dealer “ridiculous.”

“Illegal versions of these items are not only cheaper,” he said, “but you can obtain them six months faster and you don’t have to form a trust, which could be $500 or $1,000 depending on the level, and you don’t have to tell the A.T.F. about it.”

Mr. Goldman, who has prepared several thousand gun trusts and teaches courses on their use, said the trusts have many benefits, like ensuring that firearms were passed on responsibly when an owner dies, keeping them from falling into the wrong hands in a difficult divorce or helping to negotiate moves to other states that might have different gun laws.

“There was never a proper way of dealing with firearms with estate planning and whether beneficiaries were appropriate to receive them,” Mr. Goldman said.

Gun owners also turn to trusts, other lawyers who handle them said, because in many jurisdictions, law enforcement officials refuse to sign off on the purchase of restricted firearms, making it difficult or impossible for enthusiasts to buy them as individuals.

Brian Reynolds, a lawyer in Denver, said he had prepared several gun trusts, mostly for people who wanted to buy silencers for long-range target shooting. But in many parts of Colorado, he said, sheriffs and police chiefs will not approve such purchases. “By having a trust, you bypass the need to get that authorization,” Mr. Reynolds said.

However, Jim Bueermann, the president of the Police Foundation, a research organization in Washington, said, “My guess is that the majority of police chiefs would agree that there is a reason why, as a general rule, people are prohibited from owning silencers, machine guns and what we would call sawed-off rifles or shotguns.”

Mr. Bueermann said that he was especially concerned about the loophole in A.T.F. regulations that made it possible to buy restricted firearms without a background check and that he thought most Americans would find this shocking. The A.T.F.’s regulations, in fact, exempt trusts from background checks, as noted in the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide, known as the White Book, and on the forms for gun sales that dealers file to the agency. (In one publication, its handbook on the National Firearms Act, the agency does say that the trust representative who picks up a restricted firearm at a dealer must have a background check, but that deviates from what the regulations require, the A.T.F. confirmed.)

Many dealers conduct checks anyway. But others take the government at its word. One dealer, for example, said he did not think he had to run background checks for sales to trusts because Form 4473, the record of the transaction filled out by the dealer and the customer and sent to the A.T.F., specifically lists trust transfers of restricted firearms as an exception to the requirement for background checks.

Bob Irwin, who owns the Gun Store in Las Vegas, said his store always performed background checks for firearm purchases involving trusts — the store has handled three so far this year — but he was aware that some dealers did not.

The gaps in the law that allow such lapses, he said, are “astronomically stupid.”

“That really is a loophole,” Mr. Irwin said. “I can certainly see how a felon could wind his way through it and end up with machine guns.”

Article can be found here: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/26/us/in ... ms.html?hp

[WLJ]

[ssracer]

One of the things that has always really bothered me with the NFA process is that if something is perfectly legal to own where I live why in the hell should I need the permission of the sheriff to possess it...

[dbh]

I have one pending on trust. Only went that route so my son doesn't have a bunch of hassles when I die. Was considering transferring my others to the trust.

[guncrank1]

That article is full of bs
If memory services me right background checks are already done by the Feds
Oh yeah it says that right on 4473.
And since the background info is bS then so is the rest.

[Wyldman]

If a trust allowed "no background check" then why does every NFA item I buy take 6 months to get the tax stamp, back? Every single time you purchase an NFA item, you pay the tax, and must he subjected to a complete scrutiny of your past, even if they are processing multiple forms concurrently, each form has to have a complete background check every time, even trusts, which admittedly do not include pictures or fingerprints, but having had .gov clearances for my work in the past, all of it is on file, and has been for decades! This entire argument is complete and utter bullshit!

[Rext]

As many as I have done,I still dont know what they check? The trust isnt filed anywhere and all they have is a name and an address. The 4473 has much more info on it than the trust so in reality what do they really check? I do the 4473 AFTER the approved form 4 comes back. I have heard that changes were coming to this process but who knows what will really happen.

[jackalo626]

Yeah nice slipping crazies like Dorner in every time a firearm is mentioned to label us all. Nice job guys.....

[Rext]

I've always been leery of the at home trust because of this. Not an expert at all by any means but its been a red flag for me.

Its not a home trust thing. A trust is the same thing done in the same manner whether its a lawyer or you sitting at the computer. Neither has anymore info on it and neither is sent anywhere different. Its just the whole trust thing they are looking at in this instance.

As a side note,there is talk of abolishing the whole CLEO sign off requirement. This is a stupid step to have anyway. The Feds do the background check as it is. The local CLEO is merely a roadblock for you to exercise your second amendment rights.

[Wyldman]

I've had my trust looked at by an attorney, who said there was nothing that needed changing or adding, that it was perfectly legal as I wrote it.

Now working on my 7th tax stamp and BATFE has never had any problem with it, never once going to "problem" status in 7 trips so far. If there was anything they could question, believe me, they would.

This whole process is all about roadblocks and inefficiency, otherwise this whole mess would only take a week or two, tops. The whole point is to make it so expensive and cumbersome that most people just throw in the towel and quit, or worse, get so intimidated that they never even start.

[Toddinlou]

They do make what is honestly a pretty simple process seem more complex as a deterrent. The $200 stamp is the same price as it originally was. It's really surprising that they want revenue but make the whole process so difficult. Why can't the dealer submit electronic fingerprints and run something similar to a NICS check? Why is the NICS system still call in? The system needs updated for sure.

[Toddinlou]

I've always been leery of the at home trust because of this. Not an expert at all by any means but its been a red flag for me.

Its not a home trust thing. A trust is the same thing done in the same manner whether its a lawyer or you sitting at the computer. Neither has anymore info on it and neither is sent anywhere different. Its just the whole trust thing they are looking at in this instance.

As a side note,there is talk of abolishing the whole CLEO sign off requirement. This is a stupid step to have anyway. The Feds do the background check as it is. The local CLEO is merely a roadblock for you to exercise your second amendment rights.

Thats all well and good and I get what you are saying. My point is i dont trust myself to make sure all the Is and Ts are dotted and crossed by makin a trust on my computer and getting it notarized. This has always seemed to me to be an easy way for aometime down the line for the feds to find a way to screw you. Chalk it up FOR ME as paranoia. Im not dogging on wyldman or racer or rext for doing this. I am just not comfortable with it unless I have a lawyer attached to it.

I'm with Coach on the trust.... I've just done simple form 4s on my stamps. Now I'm starting to consider the trust route. Can someone clarify once the trust is established, what sort of annual filings must be done.

[Wyldman]

There are none, just keep the trust updated and notarized as each item is added. Beyond that, nada. There isn't even a filing to start with, just the notary witnessing in two places.

I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice, I merely relate my experience.

Seriously, it really is that simple.

[dbh]

FYI, I am a Notary for the State of KY and will notarize free for KAC members. You have to come to me though (Louisville).

[Rext]

I was looking at something else today that said there was talk about doing pictures and fingerprints for anyone named on the trusts! Same as an individual form 4 requirement.

[scorpionmain]

I will just continue doing Form 4's.
Thank goodness for an awesome Sherriff.

[jmeister]

I was looking at something else today that said there was talk about doing pictures and fingerprints for anyone named on the trusts! Same as an individual form 4 requirement.

I've heard that recently as well