Appropriate recoil for little girl

[drifter0069]

I have 2 daughters, 8 and 10. They both enjoy shooting .22 and .223. I would like to get them into shotguns. They are 57" ish tall and roughly 60lbs. What would be a good gauge for them and not scare them of recoil. I was thinking .410,but not sure if 20 would work instead. I want something they can hunt squirrel and rabbit with and also shoot skeet occasionally. Thanks for any input.

[inthewaterky]

Go 20 single shot, get it ported with recoil pad. Get low recoil 20 ammo and let them grow into them. I think that would be ok if you picked up the right combo.

[etownguy]

The first shotgun my dad bought me was a Charles Daley over under 20 gauge. I honestly don't remember this but he told me after half a round of sporting clays I was complaining about my shoulder hurting. So he took the gun said it recoiled so bad it bruised him. He let me finish the day with his 12 gauge because it kicked less then sold the Daley that day.

Moral: it doesn't matter the size the design of the gun makes a the difference. His kreighoff kicks like a .410 where as a mossberg kicks like a 12

[inthewaterky]

http://www.wholesalehunter.com/product. ... id=1002274

[inthewaterky]

[quote="etownguy"]The first shotgun my dad bought me was a Charles Daley over under 20 gauge. I honestly don't remember this but he told me after half a round of sporting clays I was complaining about my shoulder hurting. So he took the gun said it recoiled so bad it bruised him. He let me finish the day with his 12 gauge because it kicked less then sold the Daley that day.

Moral: it doesn't matter the size the design of the gun makes a the difference. His kreighoff kicks like a .410 where as a


THIS

[inthewaterky]

ecoil of any shotgun is based on 3 primary factors and 1 secondary factor.

Primary factors are

1-Weight of the gun

2-Projectile weight (combined weight of shot charge and wad)

3-Speed of the projectile

Recoil can be reduced or increased by a noticeable amount by changing anyone of the above factors. Increase the weight of the gun, reduce the projectile weight or reduce the velocity of the projectile by any significant amount and you will reduce the recoil by a significant amount.

Secondary factor

1-Muzzle pressure

Several years ago I talked with the folks at the H.P. White lab and inquired if anyone had conducted tests to determine what the muzzle pressure of shotguns were. They told me they had not nor did they know of anyone who had.

They did tell me that they thought that the same formula that they use for centerfire rifle cartridges would hold true for shotshells, (5 to 1) that is a rifle cartridge that developed max chamber pressure of 50000 CUP would have approx 10000 CUP at the muzzle. If we apply this to a shotshell load of 12000 LUP we would have approx 2400 LUP at the muzzle. This is a very substantial reduction in pressure.

The residual gas that escapes into the atmosphere after the shot charge leaves the barrel functions as a very crude rocket engine with an incredibly short fuel burn time. This gas escaping at high speed adds to the recoil generated from pushing the projectile weight up to its ultimate velocity. However, in my opinion because of the very low pressure at the muzzle the effect on the amount of recoil generated is a small amount.

Porting the choke tube will bleed off some of the escaping gas at right angles thus reducing the “rocket engine effect” thereby reducing recoil by a very small amount. Please understand that I have not measured the effects of this on a scientific basis.

[etownguy]

And if you want them to shoot skeet a single shot won't work for obvious reasons

[inthewaterky]

The recoil reduction industry is a huge one. In fact, it is very hard to read a manufacturer's catalog, harder yet to read a magazine article, and virtually impossible to find ad-copy that does not promise it.

"Managed recoil loads" are available from many of the top shotshell manufacturers. Powders, wads, ports, pads, vests, forcing cones, mercury inserts, dead mules, over-boring, etc., etc., all promise to make shotgunning more comfortable. Does any of it matter? Well, let's look at a few of the popular recoil reducing methods.

Confusing the issue with common sense, the first stop is physics. Shotgun weight affects recoil on approximately a "one-to-one" ratio. Add 10% to a specific shotgun's weight, it kicks about 10% less. Lighten our shotgun by about 10%; it kicks about 10% more. That's all there is to it.

Muzzle velocity and ejecta (wad, shot, etc.) both affect recoil approximating a "two-to-one" ratio. Bump up the muzzle velocity by 10%, recoil increases by 20%. Increase our payload by 10%, again the free recoil goes up about 20%. That also, is about as simple as it gets. There are all kinds of ballistic programs that will give you a number to go along with it, if you need it, but that's about all there is from a "free recoil" standpoint. The matter of "felt" recoil is subjective, and most anything can be claimed in that department--and has been.

I. Wads Reduce Recoil

Cheap plastic resin wads are supposed to do all sorts of wondrous things, including sometimes reducing "felt" recoil. According to my shoulder, forget it. A lighter wad reduces "ejecta" mass, and will reduce free recoil, but not substantially. The "Windjammer" wads were supposed to reduce recoil, and often they did. In this case, it was because they often leaked like a sieve and reduced muzzle velocity. A few enterprising folks actually chronographed their loads, and the original "Windjammer" was replaced by the "Windjammer II." No longer did it seal so poorly, and no longer was it a "soft shooting wad." Forget the wad nonsense.

II. Hard Shot Reduces Recoil

This one is actually true, to a small degree. Most reloading tools (like my MEC 9000G units) drop shot by volume, not by weight. Hard ("magnum") shot has more antimony in it than chilled shot, and antimony weighs less than lead. So, yes, by a tiny amount a given MEC bushing dropping a high-antimony, extra-hard shot charge will produce a shell that produces less recoil than a soft ("chilled") shot charge dropped by the same bushing, if loaded to the same velocity. Unfortunately, it's not enough difference to notice.

III. Porting reduces recoil

This one has little basis, as there is so little gas pressure left in 12,000 PSI MAP (SAAMI maximum pressure) loads by the time the gas hits the ports that it can't do much of anything. The recoil reduction is minimal. Perhaps even sillier are ported choke tubes, which have even less pressure to work with. Drill enough holes in a perfectly good barrel, you will actually increase free recoil by a tiny amount, as you gun weighs a bit less.

Super-large extended choke tubes can also weigh a lot more than factory flush-mount tubes, and if they weigh enough they will reduce free recoil by our "one-to-one" ratio. Is it time to bring back the Cutts Compensator so we can all go deaf together? Porting as a significant recoil reduction method is just full of holes.

IV. Powder Type Reduces Recoil

This is another abused term. Slower burning powders are supposed to give us more of a "push" than a shove. Unfortunately, most of the slower burning powders require higher powder charge weights, a component of free recoil, and can actually increase recoil.

V. Mercury and Mechanical Recoil Reducers

These cylindrical devices are usually implanted in the butt stock of a shotgun, inserted into the empty chamber of a double, or screwed onto the end of the magazine tube of a repeater. Theoretically, they use mercury or a moveable mechanical weight that is supposed to attenuate felt recoil by spreading it out over a longer period of time. The claim is that the mercury (or mechanical weight) moves forward in the tube as the gun moves backward in recoil, thus "borrowing" some of the recoil energy and lowering the maximum amplitude of the kick. The weight returns to its start position, redepositing the borrowed energy, after the stock stops moving backward.

According to my shoulder, these devices seem to reduce recoil no more than adding weight in any other manner. (Adding weight, of course, does reduce recoil.) Dead Mules don't kick, perhaps, but they can nibble at your wallet. The mercury recoil reducers do add a humorous gurgling sound not available in stock factory shotguns. If mounted in the buttstock they also move the gun's point of balance back. This may be fine if the gun started out muzzle heavy, as many pumps and autos do, but is not so hot if the stock gun balanced properly.

VI. Stock Fit

There is no question in my young military mind that good stock fit can reduce felt recoil. It is, in fact, one of the most important factors in how we perceive recoil. A slap on the shoulder is far better than a slap on your schnoz, so (within reason) longer stocks may have less apparent recoil than shorter stocks. The comb must position your eye properly over the barrel rib without hitting you in the cheek on recoil. The butt plate should be sufficiently generous in surface area to spread the recoil over a large shoulder contact area.

Take from my own personal stupidity of shooting guns that didn't fit far too often. The eventual result was oral surgery to remove scar tissue from inside my right cheek. Bleeding over a stock is a venture without much future in it. Let my pain be your gain.

VII. Recoil Pads

The word "attenuate" is rarely used, except when describing recoil pads. Recoil pads do soak up recoil, and reduce the velocity of the recoil pulse as well in a meaningful way.

The best recoil pads on the market are the Kick-Eez and the Limbsaver. The choice between the two normally hinges on whether I seek to add weight to the butt of a shotgun to improve its balance. If I want a touch of extra weight, the solid and relatively heavy Kick-Eez pads get the call. If not, the lighter Limbsaver gets the nod. Both do a substantial and meaningful job of addressing felt recoil.

VIII. Action Type

Nothing kicks harder than a fixed breech gun and without question gas semi-auto guns have far less felt recoil than other action types. They achieve this by breaking up the recoil pulse into sections (the same recoil, but at lower level over a longer period of time), as beautifully described by Bob Brister is his book Shotgunning, The Art and the Science.

To sum up, it is impossible to get away from muzzle velocity, payload, and gun weight as basic components of free recoil, because they are. Mercury recoil reducers add weight to the gun, but little else. Quality recoil pads make high-volume shooting more fun, as do gas-operated semi-autos. Most other recoil "fixes" have comparatively little value.

The effects of recoil are cumulative, and you might not discover the difference until you've shot a case of shells. Then the difference between feeling essentially normal, or feeling like you've been pounded into the ground like a tent stake, is not that hard to discern.

[inthewaterky]

And if you want them to shoot skeet a single shot won't work for obvious reasons

I learned with a single shot and hand thrower. I guess that would be more like shooting clays one at a time

[etownguy]

The actual game of skeet involves shooting two clays thrown from opposing sides at the same time.

[guncrank1]

Ok Inw was right and and wrong depending who you ask.
On the porting
"Big time trap and some skeet shooters would kill if you said porting does not work
Well it does work to help shot stringing but not much on recoil.


Any tube work does zero for recoil but does improve patterns so over boring, tubes, forcing cones etc all for pattern.

Like IWK said weight , fit and, My favorite ,the big foot recoil pad fitting.

[guncrank1]

Nothing kicks harder than a fixed breech gun and without

This is dead wrong

A long action recoil operated shotgun kicks more than a fixed breech.
Like that damn A5 and clones!!!
Bless his soul John Moses Browning designed a reliable gun but that damn thing kicks like a mule



{Sarcasum}

[inthewaterky]

The actual game of skeet involves shooting two clays thrown from opposing sides at the same time.

True.. But starting off I guess my thinking was from what I learned and then grew into actual skeet shooting. Kind of like riding a bike in my eyes. Start small and move up to the bigger frame bike.

[inthewaterky]

In my eyes its all about the kids. Get them to shoot, get them to hit one and enjoy it and reward them.. Get them confidence in one and then move on to two.. or as you said the game of skeet.

[guncrank1]

Let me add
20 gauge or 16 gauge over a .410

IMO much easier to hit with bigger bore.
I know .410 was my first gun

[irishrob]

I still have my HR topper 410 single shot I got when I was 10. I'm in my 50s now. It's a youth model with a shorter stock & recoil pad. If you would want to borrow it one weekend for them to try out, send me a PM

[ken6881]

I could bring my 20 gauge to louisville and let them try it out some time as well. I have used it since I was 10-12ish.

[Wyldman]

Consider a gas operated 20ga with a good shoulder pad on it. The gas operation should absorb a considerable amount of the felt recoil, with a nice cushy shoulder pad taking the brunt of the rest. My father in law started my son on his Remington 1100 this way when he was 10.