irons sights vs red dots on a handgun

Sig Sauer, Taurus, Hi Point, Bersa, anything but Glock and Xd.
User avatar
ChopperDoc
KAC Member
KAC Member
Posts: 5778
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:14 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

irons sights vs red dots on a handgun

Post by ChopperDoc » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:26 am

about the result I figured.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[youtube]gScGbnYG3No[/youtube]
"You rarely rise to the occasion, you usually just sink to your lowest level of training."

User avatar
DDgunslinger
Posts: 3430
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:10 pm
Location: Louisville
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: irons sights vs red dots on a handgun

Post by DDgunslinger » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:00 am

Thank you, this is guy pretty much said the exact same thing I've been saying with some video proof to go along with it.

User avatar
Dave1965
KAC Member
KAC Member
Posts: 9860
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:56 am
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 23 times

Re: irons sights vs red dots on a handgun

Post by Dave1965 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:10 am

DDgunslinger wrote:Thank you, this is guy pretty much said the exact same thing I've been saying with some video proof to go along with it.
summary?

User avatar
DDgunslinger
Posts: 3430
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:10 pm
Location: Louisville
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: irons sights vs red dots on a handgun

Post by DDgunslinger » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:41 am

Pistol with red dot gives pretty much zero advantage over a pistol with iron sights. Therefore, good marksmanship fundamentals and time on the trigger TRUMP all.

User avatar
Dave1965
KAC Member
KAC Member
Posts: 9860
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:56 am
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 23 times

Re: irons sights vs red dots on a handgun

Post by Dave1965 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:53 am

DDgunslinger wrote:Pistol with red dot gives pretty much zero advantage over a pistol with iron sights. Therefore, good marksmanship fundamentals and time on the trigger TRUMP all.
excellent, thanks!

User avatar
Whootsinator
Little Butthole
Posts: 3128
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:04 am
Location: Northern Kentucky
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: irons sights vs red dots on a handgun

Post by Whootsinator » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:36 am

DDgunslinger wrote:Pistol with red dot gives pretty much zero advantage over a pistol with iron sights. Therefore, good marksmanship fundamentals and time on the trigger TRUMP all.
I can't watch the video right now, but if a red dot or holographic sight gives such an advantage when on rifles what makes it so useless on a pistol?
"I don't retreat; I kick ass in the other direction."

User avatar
ssracer
KAC Member
KAC Member
Posts: 14065
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:24 pm
Location: KY
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 62 times
Contact:

Re: irons sights vs red dots on a handgun

Post by ssracer » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:43 am

IMO, the major differences between iron vs red dot between pistol and rifle would be:

1. Sight picture..the irons on a rifle obscure much more of your field of view through your dominance eye than the irons on a pistol.

2. Accuracy over distance...for a lot of people it's easier to shoot more accurately at a longer distance with a rifle equipped with a red dot over irons because the dot doesn't obscure as much of the target as a sight post and it takes all of the guessing out of properly aligning the sights. With a pistol, your effective range isn't far enough for it to make a difference.

Again, all my opinion. I've never shot a pistol with a red dot but I love the eotech on my AR.

guncrank1
KAC Member
KAC Member
Posts: 6387
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:48 pm
Location: Metro Louisville
Has liked: 3 times
Been liked: 15 times
Contact:

Re: irons sights vs red dots on a handgun

Post by guncrank1 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:23 am

Whootsinator wrote:
DDgunslinger wrote:Pistol with red dot gives pretty much zero advantage over a pistol with iron sights. Therefore, good marksmanship fundamentals and time on the trigger TRUMP all.
I can't watch the video right now, but if a red dot or holographic sight gives such an advantage when on rifles what makes it so useless on a pistol?
Good question

A lot of the big boys in the pistol matches shoot red dots


Sent Cranky Style from IPhone via Tapatalk
A gun smith
502-231-1118

User avatar
ssracer
KAC Member
KAC Member
Posts: 14065
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:24 pm
Location: KY
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 62 times
Contact:

Re: irons sights vs red dots on a handgun

Post by ssracer » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:06 pm

I would say in competitive matches where places are separated by milliseconds, a red dot might give more of an advantage on a pistol than any other real world application.

In self defense I'd be willing to bet that in most cases the sights don't even come into play.

User avatar
Whootsinator
Little Butthole
Posts: 3128
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:04 am
Location: Northern Kentucky
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: irons sights vs red dots on a handgun

Post by Whootsinator » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:39 pm

"Don't even use your sights" makes me immediately think of "It's a shotgun, just point 'er in the genrul direction and start squeezin' the trigger!", which we all know isn't the proper way to do things. I understand the concepts of reflexive and 'point' shooting, but I will not ignore my sights. I will reflexively put that red dot center mass of my target, not reflexively point at it and hope.

edit - another thing I can't stand... comparing competitive shooting to combative shooting, saying the milliseconds only matter is competition. Combative shooting is a competition... the winner gets his or her life. I want those milliseconds, and I want my life. I am not saying everyone should be carrying around race guns, but not using something simply because the small amount of extra time granted "isn't necessary" in a life or death scenario... is bull shit.

I'm not saying either side of the argument is wrong, but I am saying it will take a good argument to convince me.
"I don't retreat; I kick ass in the other direction."

User avatar
ssracer
KAC Member
KAC Member
Posts: 14065
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:24 pm
Location: KY
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 62 times
Contact:

Re: irons sights vs red dots on a handgun

Post by ssracer » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:10 pm

I was referring on the streets/in the home self defense, not military, where use of a pistol to defend yourself is more likely to be at arms length distances. The type of situation where getting a proper sight picture, or even being able to get the gun up to eye level, may not be possible.

User avatar
DDgunslinger
Posts: 3430
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:10 pm
Location: Louisville
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: irons sights vs red dots on a handgun

Post by DDgunslinger » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:21 pm

Whootsinator wrote:
DDgunslinger wrote:Pistol with red dot gives pretty much zero advantage over a pistol with iron sights. Therefore, good marksmanship fundamentals and time on the trigger TRUMP all.
I can't watch the video right now, but if a red dot or holographic sight gives such an advantage when on rifles what makes it so useless on a pistol?
Rifle = Shoulder fired weapon, weapon is more stable and goes in the same place everytime thus allows you to acquire the red dot quickly.

Pistol = Hand held weapon, weapon is less stable and moves a lot more during transition. You end up spending almost the same amount of time acquiring the red dot as you do regular iron sights.

I'm not saying red dots on pistol aren't useful or have a place for competition shooters. However, in my opinion they arent worth while on a combat pistol... unless you just want to have a RDS on your pistol.

User avatar
Toddstang
Global Mod
Global Mod
Posts: 14275
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:52 pm
Location: In A Van, Down by the river.
Has liked: 151 times
Been liked: 106 times

Re: irons sights vs red dots on a handgun

Post by Toddstang » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:35 pm

Back in the 80's there was an older guy here in town that held self defense pistol classes, and his training guns had no sights at all. Anyone else remember this guy? He hung out at Rays Gun Shop when it was on Preston Hgwy.

User avatar
son of liberty
KAC Member
KAC Member
Posts: 1759
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:22 pm
Location: Carrollton
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: irons sights vs red dots on a handgun

Post by son of liberty » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:17 pm

I have run both. When the Optima 2000 first came out we put it on the back of a S&W Sigma and ran it as a whore gun like that for some time. that was 10+ years ago. When the trend came back around I gave it a try again, both times I have come to the same conclusion. It works, and for some who like it it works very well, but for every thing it helped on, it cost me in some place else.

On the draw on the gun I slightly tip the front upward just a bit so that my eye is on the front sight and I index it on the target while bringing the rear up to match, much the same way an M14 mag seats in the rifle. If I do this with a red dot I have no reference , no sight until the view finder screen is lined up right , so I dont actually pick up the dot until I have the trigger half pulled and then I tend to over shoot the dot meaning I go to far and end up putting the first round low. This same effect happens on recoil , I just cant control the recoil enough to maintain sight picture, I think this in large part due to the recoil and the sight ridding the slide. With Irons I can always see both sights and I know just how much movement is needed to bring them in line. Now if I was a form shooter standing just right and punching out just right I could probably pick the red dot up just right, but im leaning around shit , shooting one handed, and shooting from all sorts of messed up body positions.

A real easy way to test this out is to get a straw from McDs , hold it in your fingers and point it at something lineing it up from the top of the straw, just look down the top and line it up, now try to line up the hole in the same way.

By all means if it works for you then rock it, but for me the irons work BETTER, not just as fast, better.


DD is spot on, thats just what I found.
Image

User avatar
ChopperDoc
KAC Member
KAC Member
Posts: 5778
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:14 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: irons sights vs red dots on a handgun

Post by ChopperDoc » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:19 pm

Basically they guy said what gunslinger noged. It took more time to aquire target with the dot because a pistol is not as stable as a rifle. Even with more time the accuracy was not better... so why spend the money. He did say that off camera he shot 60 yd targets and got more consistant hits with the RDS.
"You rarely rise to the occasion, you usually just sink to your lowest level of training."

User avatar
Frailer
KAC Member
KAC Member
Posts: 2676
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:46 pm
Location: Meade County
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: irons sights vs red dots on a handgun

Post by Frailer » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:54 pm

ChopperDoc wrote:Basically they guy said what gunslinger noged. It took more time to aquire target with the dot because a pistol is not as stable as a rifle. Even with more time the accuracy was not better... so why spend the money. He did say that off camera he shot 60 yd targets and got more consistant hits with the RDS.
FWIW that was the experience I had the one and only time I played with a RDS-equipped handgun. I was slower to acquire a sight picture at close targets, but it made it easier to aim more precisely at distant targets. I've come very close to having the slide of one of my Glocks milled for one, but I honestly can't justify the expense.
Last edited by Frailer on Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
RecoilSensitive
KAC Member
KAC Member
Posts: 3912
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:10 pm
Location: Louisville
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 2 times

Re: irons sights vs red dots on a handgun

Post by RecoilSensitive » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:40 pm

On something like the fnx tactical with suppressor or a g20 for hunting or a .22 to shoot steel plates or whatever red dot great but practical use gun for defense a good set of night sights and a light is my pick.
"But now," he said, "take your money and a traveler's bag. And if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one" -Jesus (Luke 22:36 NLT)

Return to “Semi-auto Handguns”

×