pistol cal carbines....

[CCRBUM]

alright guys, the inner tweaker has hit again and I've sold off all but my carry gun.. well and I even replaced it... but anyways, my question is how effective are they? I'm thinking both in defensive survival situations.. With a pistol I'm not planning on engaging targets beyond 25 yards.. I'm just not comfortable with that. with a rifle I am.. but it would be nice to have 1 ammo choice instead of 2 or 3... so as a defensive round, what kind of range are you going to get out of them engaging other human combatants? seems like most civilian pistol cal carbines have a 16" barrel so we'll use that instead if the super cool MP5...

2nd in a survival situation... it's your truck gun and all you have... and you need to take food with it... In our area largest game we would be looking at taking is a deer or a wild pig... is it going to work? what is going to be our limitations as far as distance? YES i realize a 22LR will do the job.. but my main reason for asking is because I would liek to "experiment" with it.. safely and in a humane manner of corse! I am picking up a 9mm carbine and I'm really thinking about using it as my truck gun.. if I don't like it I'm going to sell it off and possibly go for an SKS or a shotgun...

here is what we have to use... 9mm carbine rifle with a 16" barrel Vs. people and large Kentucky game...again I'm not talking about the normal everyday "hey lets grab our beer and guns and go shoot some critters" sort of deal lol

[Whootsinator]

If I were you I'd keep your carry gun and just get used to the idea of sticking to two calibers.... the second caliber being 5.56

Originally posted by DocGKR:
I'll just repeat what I've written before:

As many of the previous posts note, there are multiple factors that will play a role in determining which weapon might be the best choice for home defense.

From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile; it is for this reason that Dr. Fackler has expressed his preference for 12 ga buckshot over 5.56 mm for close range defensive use. Compared to pistol caliber weapons, virtually any shoulder fired carbine caliber weapon or 12 ga shotgun will prove superior from a wound ballistic standpoint. Below are the wound profiles comparing several weapons that might be used for home defense:



Note that the M1 carbine, 16” barrel AR15, 18” barrel shotgun with a “youth” stock, and 16” barrel lever action carbine are all approximately the same length and offer the equivalent ease of maneuvering, so bickering about weapon size is a somewhat moot point when comparing weapons of this type. From an ergonomic and weapon manipulation standpoint, the AR15 is far superior to the other weapons, followed by the M1 carbine, and then distantly trailed by the shotgun and lever action carbine. Likewise, the AR15 is the most modular and allows the easiest mounting of various accessories. Unfortunately, AR15’s are also usually more expensive. In addition, in some locales, AR15’s are more highly regulated and/or feared than other less “scary” looking weapons; in those areas, an AR15’s “military” appearance may prejudice some LE officers who respond to a lethal force incident, as well as the DA and jury… If living in a state with asinine legal restrictions on firearms regulations or a liberal “weapon phobic” region, a PC, plain-jane appearing shoulder fired weapon that does not scare the metaphorical sheep might be prudent…

In an indoors static defensive role against a single violent assailant who was advancing on me, a 12 ga. shotgun would be my first choice. However, if there are multiple criminals assaulting me or in a time of domestic unrest and upheaval with potentially large crowds of hostile individuals roaming about, or in situations that would require movement outdoors, then I would far prefer a magazine fed shoulder fired weapon capable of greater range, faster reloading, and greater ammunition capacity than a shotgun.

Finally, there is the matter of weapon familiarity and training. In 20+ years of military and LE use, I have fired far more rounds of ammunition, had more training with, and greater experience using AR15 based rifles than any other type of shoulder fired weapon. And while I have also trained with and used other shoulder fired weapons including MP5’s, M14’s/M1A’s, shotguns, bolt guns, and the odd M1 Garand, M1 carbine, and lever gun—baring legal restrictions, in a chaotic, stress filled situation, I would feel most comfortable and confident using an AR15 based weapon due to my previous training and experience.

[son of liberty]

Im with whoots on this one.

[CCRBUM]

what about 5.45 or 7.62x39?

[CCRBUM]

they are not on your list woots....

[Whootsinator]

Well, consistently reliable 7.62x39mm/5.45x39mm ARs are uh... non existent... so, I would say an AR in 5.56x45mm. You're also wanting to hunt with it, and proper hunting ammunition is far more readily available in .223/5.56 than in either of the calibers you named.

[WLJ]

what about 5.45 or 7.62x39?

Well the Soviets were disappointed in the 7.62x39 compared to the 5.56 enough to start replacing it with the 5.45 back in the 70s. They found the 5.56 to have better wounding potential,

[CCRBUM]

what about 5.45 or 7.62x39?

They found the 5.56 to have better wounding potential,

this still boggles my mind!

[WLJ]

what about 5.45 or 7.62x39?

They found the 5.56 to have better wounding potential,

this still boggles my mind!

There's a lot more to wound ballistics than just bullet weight and size. But bullet weight/size is easier for people to get their brain around than velocity, yaw/pitch, and fragmentation. . Kind of like the old Mhz wars in computer chips, in the real world it didn't mean much but it was an easy sell. Or for that matter megapixels in digital cameras.

[Bigcat]

marines changing ammo due to poor performance of 5.56 round......

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/20 ... o_021510w/

lot of 5.56 kool-aid beeing served up....think before u drink.

[Tyler]

marines changing ammo due to poor performance of 5.56 round......

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/20 ... o_021510w/

lot of 5.56 kool-aid beeing served up....think before u drink.

That article isn't saying that the Corps is moving away from 5.56, but to a different projectile 'shape' . We're still using standard green tip, regardless of what MARSOC and Force Recon do.

[kyswede]

If you shoot and kill an enemy soldier, you take 1 person out of the fight. If you shoot and wound an enemy soldier, you take him out of the fight, along with 1 or 2 more who have to tend to his injuries/carry him. I heard that a long time ago.

[WLJ]

Love how people think if an improvement comes out that means the current one is a failure. That failure has been killing people for over 50 years. If it was such a failure why has almost everyone gone to it and/or a copy, the 5.45 and 5.8? Of course they going to come out with improvements. Then of course the same people start talking about the 7.62x39 as if it's some sort of wonder round. Good round but it was replaced almost 40 years ago by a 5.56 copy, and it's mostly only still used in the 3rd world.

Reminds me of when I sold computers, when someone found out they didn't make their model anymore, usually after 3 months, the first words out of their mouth were "why what was wrong with it?".

marines changing ammo due to poor performance of 5.56 round......

Typical MSM headline
A more accurate headline would be
"marines changing ammo due to better performance of new 5.56 round"

[Ar-Rob]

your 223/556 is no longer any good but don't worry I will buy your stockpiles

[WLJ]

marines changing ammo due to poor performance of 5.56 round......

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/20 ... o_021510w/

lot of 5.56 kool-aid beeing served up....think before u drink.

Where did that article say "due to poor performance"?

It said

Corps to use more lethal ammo in Afghanistan
The Marine Corps is dropping its conventional 5.56mm ammunition in Afghanistan in favor of new deadlier, more accurate rifle rounds, and could field them at any time.

Don't quote an article and then change what it says. stuff like that looks like trolling.

[Bigcat]

In 2002, shortcomings in the M855’s performance were detailed in a report by Naval Surface Warfare Center Crane, Ind., according to Navy Department documents. Additional testing in 2005 showed shortcomings. The Pentagon issued a request to industry for improved ammunition the following year. Federal Cartridge was the only company to respond.

criticize 5.56 and people get way too defensive....same with Harleys....people think they are better that they really are..

[Tyler]

In 2002, shortcomings in the M855’s performance were detailed in a report by Naval Surface Warfare Center Crane, Ind., according to Navy Department documents. Additional testing in 2005 showed shortcomings. The Pentagon issued a request to industry for improved ammunition the following year. Federal Cartridge was the only company to respond.

criticize 5.56 and people get way too defensive....same with Harleys....people think they are better that they really are..

Yes, 5.56 has its shortcomings. So does every other round created. The fact is it's affordable, reliable and allows me to hit a man-sized target at 500 yards out of a 16" barrel. I can't think of any other rounds that meet that criteria.

[WLJ]

9mm is not the same round it started out as, does mean it was/is a poor performer?
7.62x39 ditto
30-30 ditto
30-06 ditto
7.62x51 ditto
45 ACP ditto
357 ditto

The point I trying to make is that you seem to be saying if a round has/is under gone/going improvements that proves it's a poor performer. It's only proves it's getting better, nothing else.

The word shortcoming only means there's room for improvement, good, that means the round has life in it still.

[WLJ]

Why is the is the glass half full/half empty question popping up in my head?

[son of liberty]

I often see the less lethal or more lethal argument spouted by people with an emotional tie to something other then the given round they are bad mouthing. TACTICS win battles not some super bullet that causes its target to die more or less then some other round. They all have there good and bad and its your ability to understand and capitalize on the benefits that make one more effective then the other, in the words of people smarter then I "Just shut up and shoot"

[Bigcat]

i was not promoting any particular cartrige, just offering objective critisizm to balance out the "Cool kids have 5.56" ...and suggesting that one should do his own research and choose a gun thats right for them...unless u want to "Fit in" at the forum or the range...then of course buy a gold plated kimber.

[son of liberty]

good reply

[Dave1965]

5.7. You can carry lots of ammo. Have upper for AR too or be like the cool kids and have a ps90.

[WLJ]

5.7. You can carry lots of ammo. Have upper for AR too or be like the cool kids and have a ps90.

CMMG is suppose to come out with a 22 conversion kit for the PS90. That would push me over the edge on buying one.

[travisccook]

My home defended by 7.62x54r.